Когда вы одни

[vadimus]

Breathing. Interacting with world around. Thinking about why we are here, and what to do with that.

Why does it have to be irrational?

Like I said earlier: "I would say that the more rational one is, the more enjoyable one can make one's experience of being alive."

Being rational does not equal to being entertained.

I don't mind living life for joy is great idea.
But I seriously doubt that having fun is the only reason to live.

[Oleg]

But I seriously doubt that having fun is the only reason to live.

I was talking about informal meetings, like visiting someone at their home, or going out with someone for lunch. What were you talking about?

I thought that if the reason for socializing was entertainment, then it should be compared to other entertaining things. But you are right, instead of socializing, one can work on his or her career, learn something interesting, etc. Countless alternatives that dominate socializing in every way imaginable.

[JT]

Procrastination is irratinal,

As far as I know, there is no such thing in life as rational/irrational when we are talking about human preferences.
Otherwise, you will have to admit that the following activities are 100% "irrational":
1. Camping
2. Canoeing
3. Dancing
4. Arguing with other people
5. Watching a fiction movie
6. Reading fiction books
7. Last but not least, living

Saying that something is "irrational" is also irrational as this action usually has no goal.
Have you ever heard about Григорий Перельман? Do you consider his behavior "rational" or "irrational"?

[Komm ruber]

Григорий Перельман?

это брат близнец Онотоле???

[JT]

Григорий Перельман? это брат близнец Онотоле???

Вассерман-то из зомбо-ящика не вылазит. В отличие от.

[Oleg]

Procrastination is irratinal,

As far as I know, there is no such thing in life as rational/irrational when we are talking about human preferences.

I see your point. You are saying that people socialize because it feels good. What I am saying is that for every aspect of socializing, we can find an activity that clearly feels better.

Otherwise, you will have to admit that the following activities are 100% "irrational":
1. Camping
2. Canoeing
3. Dancing
4. Arguing with other people
5. Watching a fiction movie
6. Reading fiction books
7. Last but not least, living

Human mind/brain needs stimulation. That explains items 1-6 on your list. What I am saying is that there are activities that provide more intense stimulation compared to socializing.

Regarding #3, it gives one a short cut into women's underpants. Any activity can be designated to have this role, it so happens that in our society that role was assigned to dancing.

As for #7, as I indicated earlier: "I would say that the more rational one is, the more enjoyable one can make one's experience of being alive."

Have you ever heard about Григорий Перельман? Do you consider his behavior "rational" or "irrational"?

His refusal to accept $15,000 that comes with the Fields Medal was slightly irrational. He didn't turn down the $1,000,000 prize, right? Quitting Mathematics was not irrational. There is such a thing as "diminishing returns". As well, perhaps he believed that he was about to receive his million dollar prize, so he decided to start his retirement early.

[Sergey]

His refusal to accept $15,000 that comes with the Fields Medal was slightly irrational. He didn't turn down the $1,000,000 prize, right?

Олег, если вы и правда не знаете ответ на этот вопрос,
можно вам вопрос задать: а с какой суммы, по-вашему "slightly irrational" становится просто "irrational"? Это вообще зависит от суммы?

[JT]

What I am saying is that for every aspect of socializing, we can find an activity that clearly feels better.

How do you know? I mean, you don't just speak for yourself, do you? Here, I would safely replace WE with I, and that will make more sense then. Moreover, when one speaks for themselves, they have to be even more careful. Did you read about some tricks with hypnosis, when people actually explain their pseudo-motivation? In the reality, these dudes where just hypnotized to do this and that (A good one was "You will come to meet me with my umbrella open, and hold it over my head"). They never admitted the fact that a doctor asked them to do things. They kept saying: "IT WAS MY CHOICE TO DO THIS".
Reference: "постгипнотическое внушение", "Фрейд", "Post-hypnotic suggestion "


Regarding #3, it gives one a short cut into women's underpants.
Can you RATIONALLY explain - what for?

As for #7, as I indicated earlier: "I would say that the more rational one is, the more enjoyable one can make one's experience of being alive."

I think - enjoying with just simply being alive is not rational.


His refusal to accept $15,000 was slightly irrational. He didn't turn down the $1,000,000 prize, right? As well, perhaps he believed that he was about to receive his million dollar prize, so he decided to start his retirement early.

This is not the case. He decided to start his retirement for no known reason. (irrational)
He did turn down the 1,000,000 (irrational)
But by your definition of rationality, his choice is completely RATIONAL. If he was you - he would say "What I am saying is that for every aspect of HAVING MONEY, we can find something that clearly feels better."

[Oleg]

How do you know? I mean, you don't just speak for yourself, do you?

I explained that in my original post. If you want to learn something, you can hire an expert, or look through opinions posted by hundreds of experts on the net. If you want to laugh, you can listen to your favorite professional standup comedian (the jokes are going to be of higher quality than whatever a nonprofessional will be able to come up with).

But let us consider the actual experience of socializing. This can mean different things to different people. Let us talk only about two of the possible scenarios: "hanging out with the guys", and "a political discussion". Have you ever had a chance to listen to American "shock jocks", like Howard Stern? Those radio shows simulate the experience of hanging out with the most amazing, smartest, quick witted, exciting, talented, fun people you can imagine. Everything you could ever want in a "buddy", magnified 100 times. Those people spend hours preparing for the event of "hanging out with the listeners". There is also a support stuff of writers. As well, they have a daily budget of tens of thousands of dollars, that they spend on doing incredible things. An actual "buddy" can't compete with that.

For similar, and obvious reasons listening to a political talk show will be more satisfying than listening to the opinion of some dufus you know.

Can you RATIONALLY explain - what for?

Are you asking for a rational reason why people are interested in sex? It has to do with Biology. I think you are missing my point. I am not saying that socializing is irratinal, I am saying that because some activities serve the same purpose more efficienty, one is irrational to choose socializing over those activities.

He decided to start his retirement for no known reason. (irrational)
He did turn down the 1,000,000 (irrational)
But by your definition of rationality, his choice is completely RATIONAL. If he was you - he would say "What I am saying is that for every aspect of HAVING MONEY, we can find something that clearly feels better."

Just because he didn't make his reason public, doesn't mean he doesn't have a rational reason.

I said that when I am socializing, I feel sorry about not engaging in more enjoyable activities. In his case, he didn't have to forego anything in order to collect his money. His choice reveals that he thinks that the fact of having a million dollars is, itself, bad. That is irrational.

[Sergey]

Just because he didn't make his reason public, doesn't mean he doesn't have a rational reason.

Это ещё почему?
Очень даже объяснил (did make his reason public)
http://gazeta.ru/science/2010/03/23_a_3341933.shtml

I said that when I am socializing, I feel sorry about not engaging in more enjoyable activities. In his case, he didn't have to forego anything in order to collect his money. His choice reveals that he thinks that the fact of having a million dollars is, itself, bad. That is irrational.

Мне кажется, с его точки зрения это ни good и не bad, а вообще никак.
Если бы ему принесли бы домой и насильно вручили, он бы, скорее всего, сказал бы "ну хорошо, поставьте вот там, в углу", и тут же забыл бы об этом.

По-моему, людей, живущих в другом измерении, невозможно описать привычными категориями "rational" или (тем более) "irrational".

[Oleg]

I wonder why he published his work in the first place...

[puzirevik]

"His refusal to accept $15,000 that comes with the Fields Medal was slightly irrational. He didn't turn down the $1,000,000 prize, right?"


Oleg FYI, Perelman did refuse $1.000.000 price.

http://www.utro.ru/articles/2010/03/23/882379.shtml

[JT]

I think you are missing my point. I am not saying that socializing is irratinal, I am saying that because some activities serve the same purpose more efficienty, one is irrational to choose socializing over those activities.

I am not missing anything. I am saying that the statement "some activities serve the same purpose more efficienty" sounds like "Conservatives are better than Liberals thus it is irrational to vote for Liberals"

he didn't have to forego anything in order to collect his money. His choice reveals that he thinks that the fact of having a million dollars is, itself, bad. That is irrational.

He has to forego some procedures, for instance - to go to the US for several weeks.
It is not worth it, because studying math is more important than flying to the US. So, it is a rational choice (spending these 3 weeks more efficiently).
( BTW, if having 1,000,000 is so bad, he can give it to his relatives).

По-моему, людей, живущих в другом измерении, невозможно описать привычными категориями "rational" или (тем более) "irrational".

This was exactly the point that I was trying to make.
The deal is, everyone to a certain extent is "living in other dimension".
Of course, nobody is going to admit that "yes, I am living in other dimension, this is why I call rational things irrational, poor me".

I can give you a good example. Imagine, somebody hates watching hockey games.
This somebody is going to say that "sitting in front of TV is irrational, because nothing is happening for 1 hour, just some random guys fighting for something useless".

[Oleg]

I am getting the feeling that in the near future we are going to agree to disagree.

I am saying that the statement "some activities serve the same purpose more efficienty" sounds like "Conservatives are better than Liberals thus it is irrational to vote for Liberals"

A better analogy would be as follows: "You prefer lower taxes. Conservatives promise a bigger tax cut than Liberals. So, given your preferences, it is irrational to vote for the Liberals."

BTW, if having 1,000,000 is so bad, he can give it to his relatives

I was thinking the same thing. His choices reveal that he places 0 value on the well-being of others.

"sitting in front of TV is irrational, because nothing is happening for 1 hour, just some random guys fighting for something useless".

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[JT]

A better analogy would be as follows: "You prefer lower taxes.

The thing is, the way you said it before, was "WE prefer better taxes".
My main idea was to replace "WE" with "I", replace "people" with "me".
For example, jobless don't prefer better taxes, or whoever ...

[Oleg]

The thing is, the way you said it before, was "WE prefer better taxes".

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say.

What I said is that whatever your preferences are (lower taxes, capital punishment, etc), there exists an "optimal" political party that you can support. Then I went on to give a handful of examples that were the equivalent of saying that people are not voting for the party that corresponds to their preferences. In my examples, the alternative activities Clearly dominated socializing (as long as one uses objective criteria to compare the two). Those examples were meant to illustrate my point, and not to provide a proof about all aspects of socializing. I implied that we could go through other reasons for people choosing to socialize, and find the corresponding alternative activities that are clearly better.

Anyway, I see that this is getting nowhere...

[Nikola]

А что делать, если на душе тоскливо (не от ностальгии), а вокруг нет никого из знакомых?..

Напишите мне. Я вас включу в список рассылки хохм. Гарантирую снятие тоски.

[Apasholimenos]

Блин, а англичан, англичан-то сколько!!! Просто Лондон, е-мое!

[Oleg]

А что делать, если на душе тоскливо (не от ностальгии), а вокруг нет никого из знакомых?..

Напишите мне. Я вас включу в список рассылки хохм. Гарантирую снятие тоски.

[Coolibin]

If the other person wants someone to come in to his or her home, and entertain him or her, they should hire a professional. They can hire a clown, or a standup comedian, or a personal chef, or a hooker. So I just don't see the Point. I don't get it. Are people just trying to minimize their entertainment costs, and get something of low quality for free?

Гы!

Насчет low quality, для большинства людей, чтобы получить те же удовольствия и в таком же количестве, что могут быть получены от живого общения, понадобится ну очень дорогой профессионал, даже при допущении, что профессионал в принципе сможет хотя бы близко сыграть такую роль. Причем, процесс получения удовольствий - взаимный. Но это не для всех. Некоторым эти удовольствия могут быть в принципе недоступны. Ну как, например, кто-то любит кататься на качелях, а кого-то от них только тошнит. Я тоже обычно говорю людям, покупающим билет на какую-нибудь карусель: "что, хотите блевануть еще разок? don't see вашу Point". Просто в данной ситуации я оказываюсь в большом проигрыше из-за того, что данное удовольствие мне осталось недоступно.

Удовольствие от взаимного общения из той же оперы, что и удовольствие от секса. Кому-то нужен партнер, а кто-то лучше заплатит профессионалу, или вообще займется чем-нибудь другим. Цель-то одна, способ достижения для каждого человека индивидуальный. Иногда выбранный вариант дешевле обходится, иногда дороже, какая разница. Если мне бесплатно предложат прокатиться на карусели, это же не доставит мне больше удовольствия.

Если человеку нравится прыгать через лужу, не нужно предлагать ему нанять профессионала, чтобы тот вместо него прыгал, нужно просто порадоваться за человека, что он нашел себе смысл существования на следующие двадцать минут.